While oceans already exist in game and often times cover huge amounts of area...they are pretty much wasted space as there is no reason to go there and it is just boring to look at underwater. I would love to see it become as beautiful and interesting and useful as other areas in Extra BiomesXL.

I don't know of any other mod that really does anything with oceans. Perhaps expanding on Nandonalt's coral reef mod as he left some time ago and the mod has only been updated (updating = make it work for other versions, but haven't added anything) by others. Plant/animal life could consist of different types of corals and plants or sea weeds...such as a kelp forest. Some would give off light, so that you would have a light source when you are deep underwater and they would have the ability/option to slowly spread (Like how you have the option for wastelands to spread or not). Of course you would then need either scuba diving gear or a food/potion that would make it so you could stay underwater for long periods of time.

I think it would be pretty cool to build a base deep underwater., but right now it's so dark and boring there would really be no reason.

I would like a proper Design doc drawn up over this stuff so that we can get a better reading experience of where Ocean biomes should be heading with the confirmed ideas from this issue. Once the DD is done we can close this.

@Rosethorns I've got one from @Annysia that I will share with you.

brill. why not post it to oneone-whakaaro and then we can close this issue (clean up duty xD)

Sure. need to confirm with @Annysia first.

Wanted to come back to this. Looking at a recent thread, I noticed that some people complain about the lack of challenge in crossing oceans. I think it's a valid concern. Things like more resources, exotic islands, shipwrecks (maybe an ocean temple or two?) will add reasons to go to the ocean. Aside from light and air, though, what challenges to traversing the ocean are there? I think that this is a good place for some Cautia features.

Specifically, I'd like to propose a "current block". This would work a little different than a flowing water block. It would be solid, for one, and might be harvestable (as a source block) with a bucket. It wouldn't freeze. Like a flowing block, it would push things caught in it, but with a bit more force. The use of this would be in creating aquatic hazards.

Example One (Whirlpools): These would involve generating a loose "ring" of current blocks facing inward, toward an area where the ocean gets lower, and funnels into a depression that can drag entities down. This could possibly even involve some kind of new blocks that appear and disappear water, or are specifically for sucking things under.

Example Two (Surface Reefs): One popular maritime trope is the rocky reef, where dangerous currents threaten to dash ships to pieces on the stones. With current blocks, this would be possible. Just add a sub-biome that generates in oceans, with haphazardly placed current blocks and rock formations rising up from below.

A final thought is a variation with a trigger condition. These would not activate unless it is raining. By playing with the ocean generation a bit, it would be possible to have regions that are perfectly safe to cross normally, but which become dangerous during a storm (possibly the intensity of the current could be affected be the severity of the weather?). My thought for generating oceans goes something like this...

Co Sh Oc De Se Ro/Se Re/Oc Is Re/Oc Ro Ro/Se ...and mirror.
Co = Continent
Sh = Shore
Oc = Ocean
De = Deep Ocean
Se = Sea *
Ro = Rough Sea *
Re = "Reef" ^
Is = Island
_(_Hypothetical new biome using current blocks to produce varying degrees of navigational hazard.)*
(^New biome using rock formations and current blocks to pose a threat to ships.)

We actually have a completed document on the google drive for this, but I'm not opposed to adding things to that document. Reefs are something already in the document and are more about exploring the different things to be found on a reef rather than the dangerous aspects of it. I do like the idea of "rough" seas during rain and do know that waves and wind are possible because Corosus has done weather and waves in his mod http://www.coros.us/mods/tornadoes, but not sure that he has done currents. I'm thinking we would probably add the ocean biome and then later on add other things to it, such as weather.

I have to honestly say I've never seen anyone complain about the difficulty of crossing an ocean. All the complaints I have ever seen have to do with how big they are and how there is nothing in them, which our ocean biome and terrain generation hopes to address. I'm not sure that we want to get into adding structures such as temples and shipwrecks. Don't get me wrong, I love those kinds of things, but that isn't really what our mod is about and there are other mods that focus on things like ruins and shipwrecks, etc.

While whirlpools might be an interesting feature to look at, we aren't really looking into adding things that harm players as we are mostly about adding beauty and things that make the players world more interesting to explore. But I can certainly bring it up to the team and see how they feel about adding dangerous things to the mod and if they feel it stays within the direction we have for the mod.

I may not be active anymore, but yeesh...! I used to be on the team, ya know! In fact "things that harm players" was pretty much my job description. If elements to add difficulty is no longer of interest, that's fine, but one of the things I've seen said in this thread (www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1958896-thoughts-on-new-ocean-generation/) is people saying how crossing an ocean just consists of "press W until you reach the other side". I thought that it might be good to address this concern if Oceans are to be expanded on, and, since EBXL has an optional module for difficulty elements already, that would be a good place to put it.

@AnonTheMouse I think @Annysia is describing the general shift toward aesthetics since our respective absences. Your idea, though, made me reread four or five times. I think it is probably one of the best mod ideas I have heard in a long time. I wish I still had the time to mod... 😀

Yes, I know you use to be on the team and my intent was not to offend. I agree with Scott in that your idea is a good one, just the dangerous aspects are not something we are interested in adding, at least not right now. The direction the mod has been going for the past several months to almost a year is more towards aesthetics.

I read all 16 pages of that link you posted and all I saw being discussed/argued about was the size of the ocean, probably 95% of the posts were about 1.6 ocean size compared to 1.7 ocean size. There were a few comments about adding coral or other terrain features to make it more interesting, or needing stars to navigate at night or better boats/ships. But I didn't see anyone saying they would like for it to include dangerous things. Someone mentioned that there had been a test in the early days with adding sharks and it was taken out because they were to "dangerous". Most of the debate/argument, at least on the last 6-10 pages were between 2 people, one liked the smaller oceans the other the larger, which included the pressing "W" to get to the other side. But to me that doesn't necessarily mean they want dangerous things added...it means they want to see things to explore and do in the ocean like they do on land. So they aren't looking at a screen of blue for however long it takes them to cross the ocean.

Like I said, your idea is good and adding things of interest to the ocean is something I am very much for, since I wrote the Ocean biomes document over a year ago. And we hope to release the ocean biome within the next few weeks/months as we have several releases of new content we are working on right now.

Lets not forget that we have an entire module for dangerous things that can harm the player... ok, so it's only for quicksand, it's still there :-).

Things that look pretty, and make the world more fun to explore? Fine.
But not all beauty is pleasant, and in general, things that attract you and want you to come closer have a reason for wanting you to come closer.

Yes, but after talking with Scott about why we have the different modules and the purpose of them, I am not sure that we will keep it that way. I agree, that there are beautiful things that can also be dangerous, but there are also beautiful things with no ulterior motive and serve no purpose other than to be beautiful. There are so many other mods that add things that are dangerous be it plants or mobs or what ever, and that is their focus.

It's like adding creatures, we certainly could do that as it would fit in nicely with the mod, but that isn't our focus. Instead we try to make our mod as compatible as possible so that the players can choose what other mods they need to create the type of world they want while still enjoying our biomes.

Oceans being too large? Sure.

Oceans being turned into the 1.7 ponds? Nope.

Nothing wrong with a fractal noise function, and putting the oceans in the "crossings" -- perhaps the function ranges from -1 to +1, and oceans are given to the -0.3 to +0.05 -- it doesn't have to be centered, if the resultant oceans are too bug then the range can be lowered, the oceans will all be connected giving actual "continents", with the ability to say "I'm positive, that land is negative, so we must be separated", and by having it off-centered like that, you can even avoid the whole problem of "the functions tend towards zero at large values" -- those numbers will still give you lands and islands at large distances even if they don't give you large land masses.

But oceans are oceans. Connected. Lands are continents; giant islands in a sea of water. Boats are the highway vehicles to get you long distances.

In comparison? The new vanilla is "You can't get there from here".

I like twilight forest. You can get there from here -- between the tops of the dark forest, clearings, and the canopy trees, you can travel long distances without having to worry about the ground in-between. It's like an ocean travel, but with a little more work.

Vanilla ... you've got hills and stuff making long-distance travel painful, and nighttime spawns all the time. You can't avoid the nighttime spawns on the water or on the tree tops.

I've learned to "love" the whole new mystcraft age design of either small or tiny biomes, 6-9 copies of ocean, and 3-4 of the land -- lots of islands, big connected water. (Tiny biomes and a single land type gives you the land types of the original games, by the way).

The largest issue I've heard from everyone I've ever talked to about them is that oceans are too large. Mojang is even toning them down in 1.7. They're too large. Sure it may be a matter of holding W to get to the other side, but bloody hell when the other side is five hours away it doesn't matter. 😆

As Annysia has said, we have very little interest in adding dangerous blocks. Basically I see oceans as something to separate continents and contain underwater content for diving, such as reefs and alike, which we've already documented on Google Drive. Plus they need to be/will be a lot smaller than they currently are. Making the oceans challenging to cross is not something I want in the slightest.

Don't get me wrong, there's some mighty fine ideas in this thread. I just thought I should get my opinion out in the open after being silent for so long.

i feel the oceans should have lots of content to make it realistic,fun to explore and worthfull

It would be cool to see,
SEA GRASS
sea palins on the floor with sea grass growing
ROCKY REEFS
rocky corals with a biodiversity of plant and animal life
CORAL REEFS
same as a rocky reef but no rocks more colorfulmany differnt plnts and corals common
COSTAL SEA FOREST
A grassy palin off the coast,plenty of plant matter
KELP FOREST
Tall kelps rising from the ocean floor,
OCEAN RIDGES
Oceanic mountains that rise from the sea floor
DEEP SEA
Deep drop offs from sand bars with deep depths,maybe i would hope ruins or a shipwreck be added at the bottom, I know you do not want to add stuff like that but it would still add aesthetics to the mod and more exploration
SAND BARS
COASTAL MANGROVES
Mangrove plants on the coast
DELTAS
River inlets connecting to river basins to the sea,mud and clay,and ore deposits could be common
RIVER MOUTHS
PALM BEACHES
Beuatiful tropical beaches with palm trees and reefs off the shores
BEACH DUNES
DEEP LAKES
DEEP RIVERS,LARGER RIVERS,LONGER RIVERS,
those are my ideas that i know have already been suggested but thats my view.
hope you like them.
.

An Oceans document is on the Google drive that contains these ideas and more. I am closing this as it will be in development.

Thanks for all the good ideas and interest. We look forward to presenting our ocean biomes in a future release.

I agree with you @Annysia

Would you be willing to draw up a rough design specification of what types of things could be found in the ocean? I'd especially be interested if there were some rare resource that was more plentiful in the sea floor...and it should be accompanied by uses for it to make it valuable.

May I toss out my old mananium ("mana-nium") ore mod idea?

This is an ore that is found either at the bottom of the ocean, or high in the tops of extreme hills -- exactly where other ores are NOT found.

http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1224140-game-balance-idea-for-new-ore-mana-rich-enchantability/

Like it!

I haven't tried 1.3 yet since this mod hasn't updated and I won't play without it. :P I do think it odd though that enchanting is tied to XP. I think it would make more sense to have it be more like making potions. Maybe for better enchants/potions you need to be a certain level to use them would be a better way for it to work instead of taking your xp. I bet on a server that does pvp it is almost impossible to enchant things...lol.

I would be happy to come up with some ideas of what could be found in an ocean biome as well as some resources that you might find there and what uses they could possibly have. @keybounce I like your ore idea and it seems well thought out. I personally don't enchant things since I never play with mobs turned on (I like to build and farm) but I know that a lot of people do so I can see where it would appeal to a lot of others.

What I really like about 1.3 is the XP from mining/smelting. Even just level 1 enchantments for efficiency are real timesavers.

I do know that every time I tried to save up to 21 for a bow enchantment before, I kept dying first. I'm looking forward to caving for XP now; apparently 30 levels an hour or so.

This is actually critical.

This is one important reason that I want my overworld to work in vanilla. No special blocks generating in biomes, etc.

This is an important reason that I want everything "special" to be able to generate in ages, ideally to be toggleable -- on in some ages, off in others.

I do think it odd though that enchanting is tied to XP. I think it would make more sense to have it be more like making potions. Maybe for better enchants/potions you need to be a certain level to use them would be a better way for it to work instead of taking your xp. I bet on a server that does pvp it is almost impossible to enchant things...lol.

You know, now that I think about it, while it makes sense to tie XP to exploring, mining, etc, and it makes less sense to tie it to combat, except to the extent that combat represents exploring, and I have argued for this (making mining XP dominant over combat XP), I can certainly see some people saying that combat is more important than exploring and mining.

But either way, you're right: Neither has anything to do with magic. Other than D&D -- which is what, a 40 year old "first design" now? -- why? Everyone has copied it, without ever thinking about it.

In-game, the XP system is a death penalty. There really is no other death penalty.

@ScottKillen That's so awesome! I can't wait. I really like a lot of other mods, but I will play without them until they update...but ExtraBiomes is the only one that I really will not play without.

With regards to things in the ocean biome...you don't want to mess with animals/creatures do you? I know that Mo Creatures (which I use) adds a lot of water life, so there is no point in duplicating what he has already done...although there are some things that he doesn't have that would be cool such as star fish and sea turtles...and a puffer fish would be totally awesome :P

I use Red Power so I have have volcanos in my world already (although an option to turn them off or limit the number would be nice) It however, doesn't put any under water although in reality there a more volcanos underwater than above. Is that something that is feasible to do or something you would want to stay away from? Just curious as it would change some of the types of rock and ore that could be available.

I agree re RedPower volcanoes. If we did have volcanoes under water, we would have to use our own blocks as Eloraam is very protective about hers. (i wish we had more control over them also)

Mobs very far off the path..although sedentary mobs like starfish could be plants in reality...that look ad act like star fish (sort of how TF fireflys are not mobs)

ohhh...that would totally work and would be great. Maybe could use them for wall decorations :P

I haven't tried 1.3 yet since this mod hasn't updated and I won't play without it. :P

@Annysia look for it in the wee hours tonight (Eastern time) 😄

@keybounce I like your ore, too...but for me, it wouldn't change much as I have yet to do anything XP related in the game...but I think for some people, they would seek out the ore!

Ohh .... 8pm-ish for me! Yea!

Now, to see if I can get only normal biomes in the overworld, "classic" mode in some ages, and "full" mode in other ages ... Give ages a reason for being, and not all the same

😄

Kelp Forest: Tall seaweeds anchored to the sea floor and stretching up to the surface, but does not extend into the air. Abalones (which would contain abalone clam meat and rarely pearls), starfish and sea urchins found on sea floor. Cool to cold temperatures.

Shallow water seaweeds of various sizes, shapes and colors could be scattered along coasts and atop seamounts. Most seaweeds need a strong anchor point in real life and tend to grow best on stone. Seaweed (including kelp) could be harvested as a food, and perhaps used in a recipe with raw fish and a new rice item to make sushi.

Deep Sea Vents: Found mostly in the deepest areas of the sea floor are black smokers, white smokers, cold seep brine pools (You know how in the Spongebob cartoon, they have beaches on the sea floor? Turns out real life has been there, done that), clams & tube worms.

Oh, and floating Sargasso Sea style seaweeds out in the middle of the ocean.

Yes, those are the types of things I was thinking of as well. I think there would be many things that could be made with the kelp and sea weed. I like your idea of abalone and urchins. Many minerals are very abundant in the ocean floor rifts such as gold, tin, diamonds, titanium, manganese, limestone and gypsum as well as many others. Titanium would maybe something good to add as a mineral found only there. Perhaps having mineral veins of gold and diamond because of the effort it would take to mine from there. Maybe some types of gems that could be used for armors or to add special properties to armor/weapons or even to make crystal looking blocks of different colors. (I'm always into things that add more types of blocks for building :P)

I think that corals would be a great addition as well. There are so many different types. It would be nice if they glowed. Maybe they could be harvested to get phosphorus of different colors that could be used to make lights/lamps or glowing blocks. The could be "mined" with a pick or shovel (or some other special type of tool) and could be moved. I would want them to grow/spread at a slow rate.

That sounds like a great idea to have different coloured lights. Can really add a whole new dimension to lighting in minecraft.

All in all, I'm fully in favour of this idea.

This is bizarre... I've been thinking of Aquatic Biomes for several days and find that you've already got a thread for it.

A few things that occurred to me would be...

River deltas - at the intersection of a river and ocean

Deep sea trenches - I've seen ravines in the water but they're only partially exposed... this would be open for the full length and most of the way down to the bottom

Volcanic Islands - a volcanic rock base on top of normal soil/gravel rock and then partial covering by another layer of the soil/gravel/rock. some could be lush and full of life while others would be windswept and desolate. ( is Eloraam's basalt part of the ore dictionary? If not you could supply something similar and keep it separate but if so you could make it so that it's interchangeable with hers when both mods are loaded.)

Coral reefs - change the top few layers of the bottom to coral/sponge/anemone/etc in small biomes and have code for growth of the reef so it builds upward and outward somewhat randomly.

Underwater caverns - Filled with a mixture of water and air. Possibly assigned a biome type with the associated flora and fauna. Could be lit by crystals or phosphorescent fungus or, in the case of biomes such as Mushroom Island, completely unlit. Parts of this could apply to land-based underground areas as well.

Glacial flows - From sparsely populated with floating chunks of ice to masses of ice and snow that could be mistaken for land.

Cliff edges - Have some land meet the water at a much higher height with drops to the water generated with a nearly vertical drop. Have caves opening-up on the sides in places.

Large, flat or geometric areas - Strange, Sunken areas that could be the remains of past civilizations ( I know, outside the scope of the mod but could be part of an add-on along with actual remains of a civilization and perhaps lighthouses on some shores )

Nice ideas. =) The deep sea trenches, coral reefs and underwater caves with phosphorus (your suggestion about parts filled with air would be very cool) are a few of the things suggested with and ocean biome. I think some of the underwater caves/phosphorus ideas were actually being discussed in another issue thread about glowing mushrooms and plants for caves which is found here: #61

I like your ideas about remains from past civilizations. Perhaps some sort of ruins similar to the ones above ground that vanilla has added? I think lighthouses would be awesome. Glacial flows would look pretty awesome even though I try to stay away from snowy areas except to take care of my wintry bees :P, but it would fit in well with some of the existing ExtraBiomes areas like the glaciers and the icy wasteland.

I like the River Delta idea as well....although as I am thinking about it I'm trying to remember if I've ever seen a river in MC actually open into an ocean or lake for that matter. Maybe a place to put the marsh biome or green swamp...of course depending on what biome the lake/ocean are in.

Also @ Scott...is there a template or something I can look at for a design document? Not sure exactly what type of information you want to see there.

@keybounce Been swamped lately, so forgive the late reply. I like the idea of a new material native to areas not usually home to anything, but I'm not sure about your ore. It's not that there's anything wrong with it, and in principle I think that the idea is a good one. However, enchantability just isn't a big enough factor without some major changes to the underlying game mechanics. Diamond gear isn't much challenge to get, and even before the needed levels were reduced and more ways to get experience simultaneously added (probably the biggest fault I've ever found in Jeb's changes) grinders made getting to maximum level the work of mere minutes. So, most players aren't concerned about an easier or lower cost way to enchant, since getting max-level enchants on top-tier equipment is relatively painless anyway.

Not to mention, I find that Mod-specific tiers are actually a bit of a turn-off for me. There are so many different mods that do things with tools and weapons and armour that adding new ones is oftentimes begging for real or thematic conflicts between mods. If we were going to add a new material, I would prefer a more utility-focused one.

Lastly, here's something my research pulled up that may be interesting.

Humans began to mine the ocean floor for diamonds, gold, silver, metal ores like manganese nodules and gravel mines in the 1950's when the company Tidal Diamonds was established by Sam Collins. Diamonds are found in greater number and quality in the ocean than on land, but are much harder to mine. When diamonds are mined, the ocean floor is dredged to bring it up to the boat and sift through the sediment for valuable gems. The process is difficult as sediment is not easy to bring up to the surface, but will probably become a huge industry once technology evolves to solve the logistical problem.

Metal compounds, gravels, sands and gas hydrates are also mined in the ocean. Mining of manganese nodules containing nickel, copper and cobalt began in the 1960's and soon after it was discovered that Papua New Guinea was one of the few places where nodules were located in shallow waters rather than deep waters.

I'm not aware of any mods that currently use Nickel or Cobalt, though the others are either common Minecraft elements or most definitely a part of the Forge ore dictionary. There are numerous applications for both of the "unused" elements, though many would require branching into "technical mod" territory (Perhaps they could be used in compatibility addons?), however, they are also used in making Green and Blue tinted glass, respectively. I think that coloured glass would fit well with a number of other aesthetic elements being added, wouldn't it?

@AnonTheMouse If we add new metals, then I think we would almost be required to also add unique tech for it, so I like this idea very much.

@AnonTheMouse Yes, I had seen the information about the gems and metals at the bottom of the ocean and found it very interesting as well. I think I mentioned earlier that if we had diamonds or gold or any other metal for that matter that the veins should be larger than above ground since it requires more effort. Since 1.25 while I can find diamonds easily enough...I only find them in very small numbers. It is very limiting since many things require them for machines...especially the electron tubes that are required for a lot of machines in Forestry.

@ScottKillen and @AnonTheMouse - along those lines...since you have to dredge, what about making that type of mechanic. Instead of the normal mining with a pick ...have some kind of machine that sucks up the sand and dirt and water(kind of like the quarry in IC but on a way smaller scale or maybe the player holds some type of pipe or tube) and runs all the sludge through a machine that filters out the rough ores. Maybe the ores and gems are in smaller sizes...like instead of full diamonds you get chips and when you get enough of them you can craft or smelt them into the full size item.

Perhaps for rivers we could do the same but instead of having a big dredging type machine...have a "panning for gold" type mechanic where the player actually holds an item and they use it to dig up a block of sediment which they sift thru to see if there is anything in it. There could be a larger version that you could set up...like a sluicer box (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placer_mining) that water and sediment run thru,

I love the thought of using different colored gems to make colored glass...maybe they could also be used to make some type of semi-transparent "crystal" type block that is a lot stronger than glass since it is crystal. (http://www.spiralgraphics.biz/packs/crystal_cut/index.htm) All of the time I spend in minecraft revolves around mining, building and farming (I only play on peaceful). So I love anything that adds more ores to mine or gives me more blocks to play around with. I am particularly drawn to glowing blocks, different types of windows, glass or crystal looking type things, so anything that adds that to the game is awesome to me. Maybe even crystal type armors?

I wish I knew how to code or make textures as I have a lot of ideas in my head, especially for textures.

oops...hit the wrong button :P

Filtering silt and panning for gold could be really interesting. There's a new machine in Railcraft called the rock crusher that has small chances of giving a secondary item when processing and I'd suggest something similar for this.

Underwater exploration should be something that can be done early in the game. Otherwise people will grind through other tech-trees just to get to that point. This is not necessarily bad but it should be an option early on rather than end-game.

If you're going to add tech then there are a few areas that you should concentrate on...

Breathing - If you make it interesting then you want people to be able to appreciate it. Helmets, Potions, SCUBAtanks... increasing the amount of time underwater should be made possible.

Living Underwater - Some sort of pumping system to swap air for water. Building underwater is tricky... making it so that you only need to worry about getting the walls put up and not removing all of the water blocks by hand would definitely be a plus.

Lighting - to my comment about early in the game. Glowstone shouldn't be the only option. (I know there are pumpkins but don't consider them an option since they really don't look like they belong underwater)

Mining/Sluicing/Sifting - Vacuum's for Silt, machines for processing it in bulk and tools for processing it by hand. Is the silt treated like a block or like a liquid?

Farming - Underwater crops, Edible or not they'll need recipes and methods to plant and cultivate. do they grow in silt or something else?

One thing to keep in mind is that if you put the silt on the bottom of areas with water you're displacing the blocks that are already there. Not a major problem for Sand, Dirt and Stone but Clay is a different matter,

@DanZilla90 Yes, my original though about an ocean biome was from Nandonalt's Coral Reef mod. It also had a scuba diving mod where you made an air tank and you wore an underwater helmet. The only problem was that the tank lasted for maybe a minute...which is way to short of time to do any exploration, building or mining. Realistically I think a tank and mask(helmet) are the best option, but I would think the tank needs to last for at least 30 minutes. Maybe have different grades that get more costly to make but allow you to stay under longer without recharging it.

Regarding lighting, his corals all had a glow and the corals only grew on a certain block that was also part of the mod and glowed...so it lit the area up pretty well. However, they were not everywhere and of course they wouldn't be in the deep parts. I was thinking along the lines of something made with phosphorus. Many deep sea creatures have the ability to glow. In the other thread about glowing mushrooms, I mentioned a mod (http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/936394-110-phosphorus-caverns-modloade) that had been discontinued (but that the creator would be willing to give the code out if someone wanted to continue it) that contained lighting made from phosphorus. When I mentioned that, Scott pm'd her and she gave him permission to use it. I think it would make a terrific option as you can place it.

I would love to see underwater type living. I am thinking like a biosphere or underwater lab. (Thinking of the movie "The Abyss")

For the mining and sluicing...I think the silt should be treated as a block...not a liquid.

The farming I was thinking along the lines of different types of sea weeds and kelp. Maybe some types of traps or nets for fish/crabs/lobsters? Alot of sea weeds just float...but I don't think that would work for farming, so I would think they would have to be "planted" into some type of dirt or sand. Maybe a new type of block that is only found underwater that is used to plant them in.

If silt is added as a block, I think that clay could easily stay. I'm not sure how deep it normally goes but I never see it at the bottom of an ocean...only along the shores and in the bottom of rivers. So I think it would look fine to have river beds made of silt and clay.

Diamond gear isn't much challenge to get, and even before the needed levels were reduced and more ways to get experience simultaneously added (probably the biggest fault I've ever found in Jeb's changes) grinders made getting to maximum level the work of mere minutes

Actually, the whole thing of being able to get max level in an hour without using a grinder is one of the biggest wins for the new system I can think of. I never liked the idea of "You have to have a grinder". I still think grinders are over powered, and I like the idea of bats gumming up the works of overworld grinders. We still need firebats for things like Etho's double blaze.

However, enchantability just isn't a big enough factor without some major changes to the underlying game mechanics
There are so many different mods that do things with tools and weapons and armour that adding new ones is oftentimes begging for real or thematic conflicts between mods.

The point of that new material (mananium) was to produce something that can be enchanted to be better than diamond. A high level diamond enchantment will give you such-and-such (30 levels, plus 5 for diamond, on a diamond level base), and a high level mananium will give you more (30, plus 30, on a (stone? iron? I actually forgot) base).

The idea was that the enchantability would be a big enough factor. However, the randomness means that you might not get what you want.

Sea floor: How about a new block for the sea floor bottom. It would be something that you dig normally; would stack up to 64, and you toss it into a furnace to smelt. The output would very often be nothing (or normal dirt), sometimes clay, and rarely minerals like iron, gold, diamond.

The idea here is simple: You are dredging the sea floor and getting rare minerals occasionally.

Scuba: Respiration helmets need to be easier to get. Respiration is too hard of an enchantment to obtain currently.

And, once you have either aqua affinity or respiration, the other should be more common. Right now both are rare, and having one does not make the other more common.

I love respiration 2.
I've lost my last R2 helmet, and now have to make do with R1. Not as good.

like instead of full diamonds you get chips and when you get enough of them you can craft or smelt them into the full size item.

Ohh, I missed that. We already have gold nuggets, so diamond nuggets or iron nuggets isn't that far off, and letting them combine at the same 9 to 1 ratio would fit the game nicely.

@ScottKillen Did you see my request a few days ago about a design document? I'm wondering if there is a template or something I can use in creating one...or at least attempt to create one. :P

Sorry @Annysia I missed it 😊

I'm going to PM a sample to you on MCF.

Interesting thread. Hope you dont mind me joining in and adding a few comments?

Totally agree on the waste that is ocean.

The key to having oceans playable will be accessibility - how does the player get down there and survive, without the continual chore of returning to the surface for air? Allied to this is what is there to do when down there, and for a lot of players - what mobs will you encounter once there. Once you have those three things working well in combination, you will be on a winner.

The problem with diving helmets, scuba gear etc in past mods has been one of visibility - its cool for ten minutes to have face plate / vision overlays, but it gets old really quickly and starts to feel very closed in (much like a real diving suit would i suppose) But are we creating a simulation? or an enjoyable game? Whilst it would be good to include in some way, diving suits, scuba gear and basic snorkelling, along with enchanted water breathing, is it possible to take it a stage further and have a deep water found plant / seaweed etc that might mutate the player into a water breather with gills? That way the player can enjoy and operate in the water environment freely. Of course, the player would lose his air breathing ability and not be able to travel on land. (Maybe another clam or sea food could reverse the transformation?)

I use the Corals mod and its ok as far as it goes, but i can never stay down long enough to fully explore it. But it has brightened my oceans up considerably. The ability to prospect for ores etc would be excellent and volcanic fumaroles, vents and spires would be an excellent addition. Atlantean power crystals as a rare block find?
Underwater caverns would be a next logical step and of course, shipwrecks to explore. (undead pirates of the carribean style zombies anyone?)

At the moment I cant think of a good sea creatures mobs mod. You are going to need one to bring the oceans to life. I know you dont want to get into mobs Scott, but it would be a big missing piece in the ocean without fish and other creatures.

Vanilla minecraft has squids.
Archeaology mod has mosasaurs and plesiosaurs, but their ai is primitive and the end effect isnt good. Though their ammonites are cool.
Mo Creatures has Manta rays, stingrays, jellyfish, small fish and piranha (i know - supposed to be freshwater) dolphins and sharks.
Atmosmobs has crabs, pirhana, whale, seals, blowfish, minecraft fish

If you combine all three mods you have a start list for ocean life. But niether Atmosmobs nor Mo Creatures has updated yet for 1.3.2 - Atmosmobs probably wont and whats happening with Mo Creatures is anyones guess now that his forum threads are locked due to update begging idiots.

It would be nice if you had a collaborative sea creatures mod developing alongside your oceans biome plans.

@MohawkyMagoo - Welcome. The more the merrier as people toss out ideas that perhaps someone else hasn't thought about.

I never play on anything but peaceful so I wouldn't have any idea about mobs that attack and what they might drop. I would like to have the water be clear like you can make it with the option within optifine. It makes being underwater so much better. I know there is a way to do it without optifine and that it just requires changing one small file, but I can't remember which it is.

As far as underwater breathing, I think there should be multiple options so that it appeals to different types of players. Having a helmet and tank or rebreather for people that want a more realistic feeling and perhaps a potion or food (made from an ocean resource of course) that allows you to breathe underwater. The first thought that came to my mind was something like the gillyweed (sp?) from the Harry Potter book that made him grow gills and webbed hands and feet so he could swim faster. I like your idea that if they use this method they have to eat something else to return to land.

We talked about underwater caverns a bit in the glowing mushroom thread as well. And someone mentioned having sections in them that actually had air to breathe. Shipwrecks would be awesome....I'm thinking something along the lines as the Fossil/Archeology Mod has in it.

I would love to have sea life. There is such a huge variety. I know several mods add different ones, but as you said not all of those are updated and the Fossil one isn't SMP. Tropicraft adds some nice ocean life as well, but their world is in another dimension like the Nether or Twilight Forest. It would be nice to have an add on mod that incorporates all kinds of different sea life. If I knew how to code and do textures I would love to do it, but I don't know how to do either.

Even on peaceful mode, the animals and sealife would add so much. Multiple options for things as far as possible - agreed. Mincraft is a great sandbox game, we shouldnt try and narrow down what people can do or how they play, just open up possibilities.
Hadnt seen Tropicraft will check it out. Even though its another dimension, I use MCS so I could spawn their creatures in my overworld anyway, just like I do with Twilight deer, squirrels and bunnies.
I like the Harry potter idea of something like gillyweed.
Agreed on the clearwater aspect - but perhaps with an occasional "blurring" ripple effect and bubbles - just to remind you that you are still underwater?

Have you thought about tides and currents? Whirlpools that suck you down into cave systems? I know the Fossils mod has shipwreck - but i've never been able to find one!

Yep - know the feeling - if only I could code and texture - but I wouldnt know where to start : )

I've been following some of the progress of mod that is specific to Aquatic Life. It's called Slappy McCracken's Aquatic Life Expanded. http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1433236-125-slappy-mccrackens-ocean-life-expanded-almost-200-new-mobs-in-the-initial-release-now-with-a-between-2-and-5-yay/page__hl__%20mccracken

I've not used it yet but it's got a lot of what you might be looking for in regards to Ocean life. It's not updated to 1.3.2 yet and it sounds like the Mod Author's work is keeping him too busy to get much done on doing so.

Thanks for that, i'll keep an eye on that mod. Lets hope it updates.

@MohawkyMagoo - I totally agree. Animals and sea life are almost a must have....or at least as an add on to ExtraBiomes or if someone had an awesome mod that did that...then it could recommended and provide a link on the downloads page if Scott is OK with that.

Tropicraft is an awesome mod and adds some really cool things. I worked with their development team a little bit with some idea and then with some closed beta testing. The only problem for me is that it is in another dimension and just like Twilight Forest...while I love the things it offers, normally I go there once to get resources and never go back. I wish they were more like biomes rather than having to go thru a portal. I would interact with it much more.

I like the idea of the ripple effect and bubbles. Not a huge amount or it would be a distraction...but just enough to let you know you are underwater. I thought about tides and currents...just no idea how that would work within Minecraft. The shipwrecks are pretty cool and he added way more types...one even reminds me of the Titanic. Some are right off shore...even connected to the shore and some are deep in the ocean. I normally fly around the map looking for them with my map open. Rei's map helps me find them a lot better as you can see the outlines/shadows of them on the big map. But it's only SSP and I seldom play single player anymore.

@DanZilla90 - That would be exactly what I had in mind...only expanded....but that would be a great start. I was just thinking a whale would be amazing...and they have them! I also love the fact that they included fresh water fish for lakes and streams. I sure wish it was updated as I would totally use it. Their future release sounds great...an octopus that can change color...just like in real life. Would be cool if they could squirt ink at you as they try to run away.

It doesn't surprise me that they are trying to add that. They have some really good people on their team. Cojomax is a really nice guy and easy to work with. They also have storms...which are really cool.

On the Tides/Currents side of things I saw that in the Tropicraft development they're experimenting with waves... It's on this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_Vor0d-JlI

The problem with diving helmets, scuba gear etc in past mods has been one of visibility - its cool for ten minutes to have face plate / vision overlays, but it gets old really quickly and starts to feel very closed in

Right now, we have "smooth lighting" which adds a general edge darkening.
And we have the pumpkin helmet that adds a very sharp face mask

A well-made covering fits the existing game very well.

Small thought. Tar, or rather Pitch, could be used for waterproofing. Maybe we could make some kind of air tank...either something that lets you breathe, or can be used from the inventory to refill the O2 meter. Possibly even add "Treated Leather" than can be used in multiple recipes, including diving gear...maybe lightweight canoes that move faster, or even some kind of antique-style submersible like this? http://thestandardedition.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/317351949_491ca52284_o.jpg

Nice ideas...I really like them =). It would give some use to leather, which really serves no purpose except to make backpacks if you have that mod and books.

The treated leather could also be used for buoys to mark locations on the water. Maybe treated as a 3-dimensional lilypad. perhaps we could allow string and lead to be attached and when the buoy is anchored this way the rope, below it, would be treated as a ladder that allows the player to ascend and descend faster.

I know cactus green (dye) is used to create waterproofing for pipes (Buildcraft). Perhaps we could treat Pitch and Cactus green as interchangeable in recipes that involve waterproofing.

Canoes and diving bells would be interesting as well. Perhaps the canoe could be used as a pontoon to build upon the water. Essentially a block or blocks which, like the buoy and lilypad, can be placed onto water.

Another thing we might consider is a mechanism to change flowing water blocks to water source blocks. This is one of the hindrances to constructing anything underwater.

Also good ideas. I like the buoy suggestion. Another source of waterproofing comes from processing combs in Forestry Bees. (I love when you can use resources from different mods) If you use the Extra Bees add on for Forestry you even have water type bees.

Maybe canoes for lakes and rivers....and a more "sturdy" boat for the ocean?

River biome = freshwater.
Ocean biome = salt water

Yes, that's an obvious way to do it on our end, but it doesn't really give the player any indication. Maybe it's just a personal issue, but I think that I would be upset if I had two equally still bodies of water that looked exactly alike, but my boat broke in one and not the other.

Maybe canoes for lakes and rivers....and a more "sturdy" boat for the ocean?

Not necessarily a bad idea, but it has the slight problem that, at least at present, there's really no way to differentiate seawater from freshwater, which would be a necessary step in creating oceans that require special boats. If we were to change the water, there is a risk of reducing compatibility. I'm not sure how many people use mods like Finite Water, but it's something we would definitely need to take into account.

Please note that I am not saying it's impossible we could do it, but it's definitely something we'd want to put a lot of consideration into before jumping to implementation.

River biome = freshwater.
Ocean biome = salt water

Beat me to it. I like that.

Interesting comment about finite water. Which makes me wonder.

Could we get something that would turn world generation mods on/off by mystcraft symbols? So that some ages would have finite water?

Off to the myst forums.

Everyone,

I love the creativity and the ideas here!

While I think it is inevitable that we address oceans (they are unforgivably bare) and the necessary tech tree ("Blocks that are merely aesthetic offer shallow game play") we will not be addressing the different types of water in any player-centric way. (We may offer fresh water varieties of flora and fauna.)

I really like the idea of rejuvenating oceans, which are now simply wasted space. Some of the early ideas of resources (whether unique or in higher quantities) to provide motivation for exploring the depths are great. Waterproofing leather with pitch is spot on and integrating with BuildCraft and RedPower to provide alternate means of water proofing is exactly the kind of follow trhough that enhances quality

I think that pontoons might be a good start toward higher tech.

I had an idea of an air lock that could be used for an underwater entrance. This device presents itself in my head as a multiblock machine similar to Railcraft's tanks. This would be a premium structure that could take Industrialcraft overclockers or other upgrades to make it operate more quickly and power would have to be provided.

I know that there are ways that underwater entrances can be crafted more easily based on the games physics, so another motivation might be that in order to access resource rich silt on the ocean floor you must build a chamber accessed by air lock. Water is pumped out providing an empty chamber in which to place excavation equipment.

Anyways...Ive been coding the 3.1 update and I wanted to add my thoughts here while they were clear in my head.

Have a great night!

Waves???

• Ocean could perhaps have additional source blocks along Y=64 ...

Yes, that's what I was thinking. River/lake = freshwater and ocean = salt. I think it's pretty easy to tell a lake from an ocean. I've never in any of my worlds seen a lake that looks even remotely as big as an ocean. It just seems common sense to me that a canoe would go on a lake or river. I don't think anyone said it would break in the ocean and it doesn't make sense to me that it would. To me the difference is that you wouldn't go as fast on the ocean in a canoe because it is not made for sea travel.

@keybounce You lost me on the water and mystcraft. :P I've never seen or used that so I don't know what symbols and ages are.

I am perhaps misunderstanding. However, it seemed to me that if you need a sturdier boat for the ocean, that would imply that the ocean would cause less sturdy boats to break.

Secondly, yes, the ocean is large, but Minecraft occasionally has some odd hiccups in terrain generation. It might also be interesting to play with some ideas like inland seas, or a calm bay near the ocean. In fact, some people might want to build an artificial island/lake/etc... in an ocean biome, and having their contained water behave like open ocean because of location would be a frustrating limitation. Finally, there is the aesthetic factor, which may not matter to everyone, but I personally would find it bothersome if water did have some special behaviour, but provided no visual indicator to convey that.

With the Mystcraft mod you create additional worlds with various
characteristics each world is called an "age" and the characteristics you
get are random and represented by various symbols. After discovering each
characteristic the symbols become available to be written into a book that
defines that age. when you travel to that age it will be defined by the
symbols used and they can include biomes, weather, the passage of time from
day to night, glowstone crystals, mystcraft crystals (used to create
portals to ages, works similar to a nether portal), World generation type,
etc.

It's based off of concepts from the Myst series of games.

Without the presence of waves I think making a difference to the types of
boats is pointless at this time. I would like to see them but I think the
water-type shouldn't matter. What we should concentrate on with them is how
various materials can improve their resilience, speed and possibly if they
could be used to cross lava or other liquids For example, in a volcanic
region the water might be highly acidic.

On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 12:41 AM, Annysia [email protected] wrote:

Yes, that's what I was thinking. River/lake = freshwater and ocean = salt.
I think it's pretty easy to tell a lake from an ocean. I've never in any of
my worlds seen a lake that looks even remotely as big as an ocean. It just
seems common sense to me that a canoe would go on a lake or river. I don't
think anyone said it would break in the ocean and it doesn't make sense to
me that it would. To me the difference is that you wouldn't go as fast on
the ocean in a canoe because it is not made for sea travel.

@keybounce https://github.com/keybounce You lost me on the water and
mystcraft. :P I've never seen or used that so I don't know what symbols and
ages are.

—
Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com//issues/76#issuecomment-9001047.

I have some concern that this might conflict with Metallurgy 2, since they apparently use the name, but I have another idea for an ocean resource we could include. I was thinking about Bitumen, which is in the same family of materials as the Pitch we've been bouncing ideas around for. Technically they're actually rather hard to distinguish by definitions, but wiktionary calls Bitumen "mineral pitch", and other sites describe it as a part of "tar/oil sands". So, while not necessarily precisely correct, I think we could use this as another mineral, able to produce the Coal Tar I suggested in the other discussion with less materials. As an added bonus, it would be ripe for Buildcraft integration, with possibilities both for generating in high concentration where Buildcraft Oil is spawned, and possibly even tech to refine it (if not Pitch instead/as well) into oil.

Not gonna lie, the bee stuff sounds pretty cool...and I've not tried playing around with bees yet, even.

Here is a link to the Extra Bees add on. http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1324321-125sspsmpbukkitforestry-extra-bees-132d-revolutionize-your-bee-breeding/ The OP shows a lot of really good info as well as machines, the bees it adds, what they produce and the "effects" :P that some bees have.

An air lock would be pretty cool and if it actually removed the water from a room/building and then provided a way to get in and out without flooding the base it would be a huge benefit. That's kind of the picture I had in my mind when I mentioned the lab structure from the movie the Abyss. They had 2 ways in...from a hook up that a submersible would attach as well as a large room that had an opening for divers to leave thru.

Waves would be an awesome thing to see and add interest and movement...but curious as to if that kind of constant movement on a large surface would cause lag? Streams/rivers also have movement which is currently not shown in the game.

Regarding tar...another source could be the bees from the Extra Bees add on for Forestry. The "refined branch" produces a tar comb which you would then centrifuge to get the tar. Also the bees from both produce beeswax which can be turned into pipe waterproofing. Perhaps the wax or waterproofing material could also be incorporated in some way with the leather or wood in addition to the tar. Maybe if we asked Bennie he would make a "coral" bee or a bee that lives in the silt since there are already water and rock hives. (If you can't tell...I love bee keeping :P)

Love the Extrabees integration point!